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Thread: "Apple Cider's" Effect On Plants

  1. #91

    Re: "Apple Cider's" Effect On Plants

    "Off the shelf bleach has Sodium Hydroxide to lower it's pH and keep it stable. In solution, it breaks down as follows"
    Of course, you MEANT Bleach has Sodium Hydroxide to INCREASE it's PH, and keep it more stable :thumbsup:
    I hate those Typo's

  2. #92
    Prestige Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007

    Re: "Apple Cider's" Effect On Plants

    Quote Originally Posted by pldoolittle
    Off the shelf bleach has Sodium Hydroxide to raise it's pH (~12) and keep it stable.
    What typo?

    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -
    Samuel Adams

  3. #93

    Re: "Apple Cider's" Effect On Plants

  4. #94
    Super Helper Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007

    Re: "Apple Cider's" Effect On Plants

    Quote from: MMI Enterprises on Today at 03:10:36 AM
    Way I see it until you explain it better is that you mean to say the large quantity of water and its ph is the buffer contributing a large amount of ions/stabilization and when it is removed the resultant swing will be huge toward acidic. Way I see that hypotheseis of what ya mean though is that the ph would go the other direction being the buffer ph is closer/lower than a half way point between acetic ph and bleach ph. Help Phil...explain it for me would ya please.

    Water is neutral (pH 7) and does not buffer anything. You can boil water from 500gal down to 5ml and the pH will still be 7.

    If you have 6% bleach dissolved in water, and you remove the 1/2 the water, you are left with 12% bleach. The pH of 12% bleach is greater than that of 6% (more OH- per unit of water). Likewise for an acid solution. If you remove the the water, you move the pH farther and father away from zero. No matter what you start with, you will never change a solution from acid to base (or the reverse) by the addition (or removal) of water. You can take a quart of pH 2 acid and add 500 gallons of water and it will go to pH 6.9. Add 500 more, and it may be 6.999, ad 500 more and it may be 6.99999. But even if you add 1 million gallons, it will NEVER go past pH 7.00

    Thanx Phililp for the great response... Was just trying to confirm your thoughts is all on the role of the water, I realize water is not a buffer and/or is wrong choice of word.
    However I still am unclear...Some if it seem contradictory to me and the concentration thing isn't clicking.

    Here some more contemplations...maybe I can talk myself through it or you can spot some key that will better able you to help me understand it better.
    Same ratio of H+/OH- exists albeit a lesser amount when you boil water away or evaporate it away is what I hear you imply and that would apply in considering water on its own. That makes sense to me.
    When such neutral water is in this hypothetical mix we are considering at 6.5 you say there is no OH- no more right?
    How does it balance at 6.5 rather than shooting straght to what a 100% acid would have it be (hypothetically) or in other words based on what its H+ concentration would have it be if there is no OH-? The other chems ions don't play no role and their gone and then just the water addition/concentration makes the ph float around where it would have it? Surely they play some role. Again, seems to not make sense to me in that if we add a hydroxide absent of water that we can move the ph where we want...Without water we would just have gases and so there is water to consider in the acids or bleaches, etc. from the get go.
    I just don't get it apparently....if I hypothetically had acidic and alkaline components absent of water which would contain hydroxide and hydrogen individually there combination could give me neutral or possably something above neutral but if it dips just a little under neutral it doesn't dip all the way due to no hydroxide...Gues I thought there was always hydroxide ions present.
    If there is no OH- at 6.5 than you can't be removing an actual neutral water in an evaporation or boiling scheme. Such may play into how you describe concentrating things Philip. Just can't get my brain around it now though in considering the other chems being able to adjust ph. Although I do remember something about the hydroxide is formed upon the drys hitting the water so logically there be none when water is gone.. If the water is gone how or why be worried about what's left. Not active no more and just salts and gas right?....

    If I got 50/50 solution of bleach and acetic with no additional water my ph would be what?
    If existing water is removed it then goes way lower? Doesn't the water leave both component at some proportionate/same amount and it balances out? Least until there is no OH- able to form. Oh but wait there is no OH- under 7 anyways.. right?
    If when dry the strength of the acidic portion is way stronger then I can understand it that some point we go teetering to point of no return but again why it matter if it dry? Anyways.. just contemplating and I fer sure aint no chemist. I just know I don't usually at all let my water dry in most any cleaning I do if I can help it.

    More I delve the more needs
    Surface Interventions performed by ~Kevin T.
    Sacramento, CA
    Wood Refinishing-Pressure Washing-Concrete & Vinyl Floor Care-~~~> ..done Right!!

  5. #95

    Re: "Apple Cider's" Effect On Plants

    This is for you Phillip
    This is the working Chemist Rachael a friend of my friend Jeffrey from Palmetto Roof Restoration up in SC.

    I really wish you could come over to TGS

    All right guys it’s me again, Racheal. I am still having trouble posting replies with my own account so I am under Jeffs again.
    How things clean:
    Sodium Hypochlorite: Bleach contains chlorine which kills bacteria, algae, molds and mildews by disrupting important cell functions. The method by which bleach actually bleaches is by oxidation. The hypochlorite ion or the hypoclorous molecules react and release atomic oxygen (O2). The oxygen then reacts with color forming molecules of the stained substance. It disrupts the chemical bonds and creates new bonds that absorb at a different wavelength of light, subsequently turning it white.
    Sodium TetraBorate: Borax cleans and bleaches by converting some water molecules to hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) especially in hot water. Borax produces a basic solution in water. The boron, salt, and/or oxygen of boron inhibit the metabolic processes of many organisms. This characteristic allows borax to kill unwanted pests and bacteria. Borax also acts as a chelating agent (bonds with minerals to reduce the hardness in water), which maximizes the available soap and enhances cleaning power.
    Isopropyl Alcohol: CH3-CH(OH)-CH3 Rubbing alcohols usefulness is in that it is soluble in both water and organics. Similar to the bipolar action of dish detergents. The -OH part of the molecule closely resembles the HOH structure of water molecules. In particular, the oxygen atom has a small negative charge i.e. the charge on the molecule is polarised between the negative oxygen atom and the rest of the molecule causing hydrogen bonding. Organic materials lack polarized molecules like oxygen. Therefore they are non-polar and can not hydrogen bond with the water. The hydrocarbon backbone of the isopropyl alcohol allow it to bond with organic materials (such as algea). Isopropyl alcohol also has the added use of ‘sterilizing’ or ‘disinfecting’. With the algea and any spores it will disrupt or even melt (depending on concentration) the cell walls making them no longer viable.

    Does this help much? Please let me know what things help and what things don’t.
    Also I would like to know if any of you have noticed if roofs seem to be cleaner if cleaned on a sunny day as opposed to a cloudy day? The main mechanism for cleaning seems to be oxidation power and sunlight would promote the release of the atomic oxygen. I am curious how much of an effect it has. Is it even noticable? If anyone has noticed anything along these lines please let me know or even pay attention over the next while and get back to me. Thanks.

    To Kevin with MMI, I read through your wood experiment. I found it very interesting and worth some investigation but I have to admit I don’t know very much about cleaning wood. Not looked into it. I could not say if the same things that would clean roofs well would clean wood well. They are different substrates and could very well act very differently.

    On a completely different note I would like to encourage everyone to always handle any chemical in a safe manor. Always read the MSDS for any chemical before handling it.

    Hopefully this helped some….
    Palmetto Roof Restoration
    Goose Creek SC (Charleston SC)
    843 818 8471

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    #28 (permalink) Today, 12:56 AM

    Apple Roof Cleaning
    Forum Leader

    Join Date: Aug 2005
    Location: Tampa, Florida
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    Thanks Rachael
    I hope I spelled Rachael right, ahh, spellchecker says I did.
    Yes, the sun is a roof cleaners friend Rachael.
    We all dread a cloudy day and a light colored roof.

    The main thing that has perplexed me, and many roof cleaners is IF bleach cleans roof shingles better at a low or high PH.
    I posted a link to a Japanese study showing higher PH's clean better, and low PH disinfects better.
    But commercial bleach activator Jomax MSDS clearly shows Acetic Acid as the only active ingredient,

    IF indeed bleach cleans roof shingles better at LOW PH, then it does mean that the Acid in bleach is up to 100 times stronger at low PH.
    Therefore, theoretically we should be able to use say a 10 percent Sodium Hypochlorite mix and 90 percent water.
    It should also be more feasible to acidify this dilute solution ?

    Also, many of us do roof treatments Rachael.
    If you can, please do a search for my "hillbilly roof treatment" thread started by Apple Roof Cleaning.
    There are several effective fungicides and biostats to control the plant that grows on our customers roofs.
    The problem is the rain rinses it off.
    Can you think of any cheap, slowly dissolving chemical we can apply to a roof that will "TRAP" the copper sulphate or Borax in it, and slowly dissolve and release it, time release style ?

    Another area of interest for roof cleaners is a "quick and dirty" way to HIDE the smell of Sodium Hypochlorite with a perfume or fragrance, and also to thicken the solution to increase dwell time, and minimise run off.

    These 4 areas represent the "Holy Grail" to roof cleaners worldwide.


  6. #96

    Re: "Apple Cider's" Effect On Plants

    [quote author=Apple Roof Cleaning link=topic=4135.msg55734#msg55734 date=1207749494]
    [quote author=Peerless link=topic=4135.msg55608#msg55608 date=1207683862]
    [quote author=Apple Roof Cleaning link=topic=4135.msg55593#msg55593 date=1207677764]
    I am very familiar with your pump type Thomas, since I was the one who showed you about them.
    But I have had pieces of TSP lodge in the pump once or twice.
    On the pump we use, there is an air reset that usually cleans it right out, so no worries.
    About the TSP, 8 pounds per 100 gallons you use is quite a weak solution.
    1/4 cup per gallon is 12.5 lbs of TSP for 100 gallons mix.
    the suggested effective amount of TSP by the manufacturers of it for surface cleaning is 1/2 of an 8 ounce cup per gallon of mix.
    That would be 400 ounces for 100 gallons mix, or 25 lbs.
    Standard Apple Sauce asks for 12.5 lbs TSP per 100 gallons, or 1/4 cup TSP per gallon.
    Your use of roughly 8 lbs per 100 gallons comes real close to the 1/4 cup per gallon amount in a 100 gallon tank.

    IF I were only publishing the Apple Sauce formula for FLORIDA roof cleaners, I would have no problem going down to a smaller amount of TSP.
    Our SH is FRESH and STRONG here.

    But, from calls I get from having the roof cleaning worlds number one web site for all these years, and my reputation of being willing to help people, I learned something.

    The strength of SH people get outside of Florida is not anywhere near what we take for granted here.

    That is why Apple Sauce goes up to 1/4 cup per gallon TSP.
    Sometimes, our northern friends cleaning mix needs all the help it can get.

    For masonry and cement use, TSP suggestions go up to 1 full 8 ounce cup per gallon.
    On old cement tile roofs, like those really nasty ones down in Apollo Beach, I have used full strength TSP solutions with amazing results.
    But ONLY in extreme cases.
    Usually 1/4 to 1/2 cup is just fine, sometimes less.

    I do not feel comfortable using strong TSP solutions on shingle roofs.

    I have had many conversations with Owens Corning Chemists from their technical services division.
    One must remember the "ARMA Guidelines" were written for HOMEOWNERS.
    As a matter of fact, one ARMA bulletin actually says PRESSURE WASHING should only be done by a professional
    That's right :thumbs up:

    I am probably "guilty" of starting the "ARMA Craze", since many web sites have "borrowed" from mine

    Thomas, sometimes it almost seems like you are "writing for the search engines" bro ?
    This forum is NOT search able, and NEVER have I seen any thing posted on the roof cleaning part of it make it to a search engine either.
    Maybe SOMEDAY it will "open up", but it aint now.

    NONE of us use an "ARMA Approved Strength" solution because it wont clean.
    We all sometimes DO use ARMA approved Chemicals, but the minute we
    take it one step further" and add gelling agents, we are "outside" Arma Guidelines.

    Hell, even our friend Frank is "outside arma guidelines" with his AJAX
    When YOU admittedly gell and emulsify your solution, YOU are outside Arma guidelines.
    When I add my special biocide, or use Isopropyl, I am "outside arma guidelines".

    Even adding TIDE to the mix is outside arma guidelines.

    Once, on a roof, I had to pee
    It was a steep shingle with LOTS of slippery algae and granule loss.
    Guess I "voided their shingle warranty" huh


    Chris, thank you for your responses.

    I am a roof cleaner that has repeatedly analysed my process and I am constantly trying to make my roof cleaning process better. I have learned that you can't rush roof cleaning. That is when you make simple mistakes and take an easy job and create problems. I clean a lot of roofs and have refined my process and pumps very far. I feel if a simple solution change is all I would have to employ to make my already very effective process faster, than I am all game for this mix. I value your vast knowledge Chris and come here peacefully and humbly asking the same questions I posted earlier today. I understand you have been cleaning roofs for 14 years and don't use a roller pump. Please answer them for me, that is all I am asking you to do.
    Here they are:

    1. At the compromise of the quality of the clean as you have stated...How much faster per roof are we talking? Like 10mins or 30 mins or an hour??? How long?

    2. "Are any "beta testers" gaining an edge with speed with this solution? How many in a day are the "beta testers" doing a day?"

    I'll refine that question so it is easier to answer....

    Compared to the mix you were using before.....

    How long would it take you to clean three comparable roofs with your old mix vs the new mix?

    I guess I have another one now

    For the folks that purchase the bleach from a chem distributor...

    When you buy 12% SHC and it is not at least 10% SHC when it comes to your shop and you go out and
    clean with 3-4% and it "does not work"....Do they refund all of your money?
    Sorry for the late Reply, I did not see your response until now.
    I will try and answer your questions.
    First of all, I do not feel the new sauce is a "compromise in quality" EXCEPT on a bare cement tile roof where one can use a strong TSP solution.
    TSP is well known as a cement cleaner.
    You do NOT want to use a strong TSP solution on a Glazed, or Painted tile roof, as you know Thomas.

    Like I said before, I feel the new sauce approaches a roof done with 1/4 to 1/2 cup TSP per gallon.
    You said you were using 8 lbs per gallon.
    12.5 lbs per 100 gallons is 1/4 cup.
    8 pounds per 100 gallons is below 1/4 cup.
    I think the results you see with the new sauce will be the same.

    As far as speed goes, the new sauce does seem to start cleaning a bit faster.
    And Tile roofs seem to require a bit less going over on the edges.
    A good job, NOT speed, is job one for us so I have never really timed it.
    I think it's main advantage in time saving is it's ease of manufacture.
    Literally, you just dump the ingredients in your tank, and stir :thumbsup:
    Some, using roller pumps with bypass just let the pump agitate the mix.

    I saw the US Patent for this similar new sauce, and posted it mainly as an easier to make ALTERNATIVE to the TSP based sauce, especially for the guys using roller pumps.
    I have used roller pumps in the past Thomas.
    The extra lubrication provided by the surfactant in the new sauce can't hurt.
    I was advised by Hypro to do this when I used roller pumps.
    Hypro told me Farmers who used their pumps put a little dish soap in with the fertilizer to keep their rollers "lubricated".

    As far as the best testers go Thomas, many are up north.
    It is still kinda cold up there.
    I have had several tell me it cleans at least as good, or even better then a TSP/SH solution.
    We have figured out it does eat the chlorine up a bit faster, and this has been noted.

    I still like TSP, especially on a Tile Roof.
    Dish Soap or ANY surfactant on some tile roof's is an invitation to a "joyride" :thumbsdown:
    Slip slidin away
    Makes the roof too slick, if ya know what I mean.


    Another great reply from Chris Tucker of Apple Roof Cleaning,

    With your floors Chris....

    I don't know the condition that your floors are in.

    How old is your house?

    How much sq/ft are you trying to clean?

    I have flipped a couple house Chris. One thing that I learned, I don't touch floors or electric or plumbing.
    Have you ever worked all day on floors? I'll knock walls down, paint, reroof, frame , cabinets etc... but having spent time working on floors my time and back is worth my money.

    This is a profession where I feel they earn the money.
    My advice is to hire a pro.

    Man, it is busy now Chris.
    I didn't get home until 10pm last night.

    Almost missed UFC

    Thank god for DVR huh! I fell asleep so tired Chris. I didn't even make it to the gym.
    Hey, I remember when I spoke on the phone a couple weeks ago you were all gitty about getting back in shape. Have you been hitting the cardio? How is your progress?
    TRaining and fitness is a hobby I like Chris. No money or Bullsh1t will buy you a good body...just hard work
    discipline and genetics.

    Good luck Bro :thumbsup:

  7. #97

    Re: "Apple Cider's" Effect On Plants

    Have a nice Day :thumbsup:

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